The City of Milan

The border of the city of Milano was decided 200 years ago, when the city had only 400.000 inhabitants. Today inside the same borders there are 1.300.000 inhabitants, but the REAL CITY is bigger, and has a population on 4.500.000 of inhabitants. That’s people live in Milan and in other 40/50 municipalities that are called the First and the Second Ring, or also the Grande Milan (the Big Milan). That’s the CITY of Milan.

then, as in all the rest of the world there is the Metropolitan Area of Milan, that is not exactly definite and can have from 6.5 Millions if you calculate it with the German, Spanish and English way of the Metropolitan Areas, or more than 7.5/8 Millions if you calculate it with the French and American way for M.A. Milan is the 3° biggest city of Western Europe after London and Paris.

I'm Italian and maybe I can help you as regards the City of Milan... In my opinion we can consider the metropolitan area as a groups of 40/50 municipalities in the province of Milan (let's say Rohm, Sesto San Giovanni and so on...). In the article there is a list of footballers born in this Metropolitan Area... so I can understand that also Bergamo, Varese and all the major city of Lombardia are included. In my opinion it's too much!

Maybe the list is not really correct: for example Paolo Rossi was born in Prato, near Florence; Franco and Giuseppe Baresi were born in Travagliato, a countrytown in the province of Brescia (more or less 50 miles from Milan...) and so on!

Photo: sxc.hu

Discussion Part X

You are trying to tell me that some Italians have Middle Eastern/North African ancestry dating from when Carthage attacked the Italian peninsula, and when the Phoenicians arrived in Sicily. I have already established that 1, the Carthaginians were not Middle Eastern, and they were Punic, a people whose origins is Cyprus. 2, the Phoenicians never colonized Italy, only founded a city on Sicily, Palermo. So much for your so-called extensive Middle Eastern colonization of Italy. The only southern influence on Italy I will attest to is the 75 - 200 years of Arab rule in Sicily and southern Puglia, which much of many of the people who settled Sicily were Berber, in which most were ousted during a crusade on the island by the Normans (origins Northern France/Scandinavia). Does you argument matter so much to you...either way Italians are Caucasian. You better just end your ridiculous argument on the genetic makeup of Italians. No one in Italy cares about these ridiculous arguments.

Discussion Part IX

You are a complete nutter....you clearly can’t read the links that I have provided for you. Who was bragging about the contributions of the north? NW African (Moorish) admixture in Europe is proof enough that I recognize that there is Northwest African admixture in Italy, but it shows a 2.5% average in Italian persons, compared to 8% in the Portuguese, 5% in Spaniards, and 3.5% in the French. The whole Discussion Part was based on the realization that there is minimal southern admixture as well northern admixture; Italians remain influenced wherever foreigners touched whether it is the Saracens, Germanic, Celtic, Norman, Greek, but only in a minor way. Get out of your "brown is better" phase. Realize that you and most of other central, southern Europeans, and even Eastern Europeans have medium complexions, with brown hair, dark eyes...your nothing special (incidentally the Portuguese, Spaniards, Italians, French, Croatians, Slovenes, Bosnians, Albanians, Greeks, Poles, Hungarians, Austrians, Belgians, and even Britons can share your features).

Discussion Part VIII

You claim to be Neapolitan. No other group has contributed to your area more besides the indigenous Italic peoples than the Catalans (from Catalonia, Spain). The architecture, the influence on speech and the names of people such as Rodriguez, Perez, etc. is still very apparent, but again this does not reflect the entire 59 million people occupying the peninsula. You see Italians varying from region to region reflect past influences of migrations particularly in its architecture. So we see influences such as Etruscan, Roman, Greek, Celtic, Germanic, Frankish, Byzantine, Saracen, Slavic, and Gallic influences in Italy but it all depends on where you go. You can’t speak for the whole Italian peninsula, just like I can’t. While you are proud of your Moorish history, I am proud of Italy's indigenous Romans, who not only influenced the Italian peninsula, but almost every corner of Europe and Western World, something to be more proud of than the meager contributions of others groups who left minor imprints on the map.

Apparently you can't read--I was born in Napoli and look very Mediterranean (i.e. black hair, olive skin, etc.). If you're going to brag about DNA contributions from the North, you also have to acknowledge those from the South. I'm a racial realist, NOT a racial idealist or fantasize. I don't see anything wrong with pigmentation. I myself have light brown skin and wouldn't change a thing about it. I also wouldn't change my straight black hair, Roman nose, and thin lips. Every human being should be fine with the racial traits he or she was born with. Diversity makes the world beautiful. The Mediterranean has been the most diverse region throughout its history--and there's nothing wrong with that! If the reality of history bothers you, then continue to dwell in your racial fantasies and envy of Northern Europeans. I myself will remain glad I was born with Mediterranean features and am neither too dark nor too light (Albino looking). Stopp worshipping at the altar of de-pigmentation.

Discussion Part VII

Italians like every other European population have dark and light populations. When I visited Italy last month, I saw blondes, redheads, brunettes, blacks, I saw pale, and tanned complexion Italians. You see the same differences in Poland, Germany, Britain (many Welsh people have dark complexions), Spain, France etc. Buddy you are confused. Watch some TV, like C'e Posta per te, or Forum, and look at some real Italians...far from how you describe. The Amalfi cathedral as something to back your argument is week. According to historians, the cathedral is a mixture of Romanesque, Goth, Byzantine, and Arab-Norman style. Looking at the cathedral it is strikingly Byzantine. Instead of focusing your attention to the future demise of Italy such as a declining population due to ageing, you are focusing yourself on ridiculous arguments.

Buddy, you are the biggest joke ever, but I have to admire your stupidity because you believe it. You distinguish me as anti-Islamic, though it was you who previously wrote: "There is no reason to be ashamed since most of this link pre-dates the founding of Islam." You sound pretty hypocritical to me.

I provide you a link showing NW African (Moorish) admixture in Europe (northern Italians: 1.5%, south-central Italians: 1.3%, Sardinians: 0.3%, and Sicilians: 3.1%) and you still accuse me of denying this though I acknowledge this contribution to the Italian gene pool. Seriously, who cares if Italians are embarrassed or ashamed to acknowledge this fraction of their heritage? Did you know that virtually every population in Europe has some sub-Saharan admixture: "According to a summary study by Pereira et al. 2005,[3] sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 0.62% in a German-Danish sample, 1% in the British, 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish), 2.38% in Albanians, 2.86% in Sardinians and 0.94% in Sicilians." Another study saw: "Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. However, Haplogroups E (xE3b) and Haplogroup A spread to Europe due to migrations from Northeast Africa, rather than the slave trade. The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal black admixture."

Discussion Part VI

Who said that north was better than south. I am Italian, Black, Native, and Scots-Irish definitely not pure anything. But your argument is baseless. If you are willing to acknowledge 2.5% of your roots as Middle Eastern, why won’t you accept the Celtic, Germanic, and Roman, Italic, Greek, and Norman elements that flow in your blood as well including Catalan which had a strong presence in Napoli where you’re from? Funny you being from there would not mention stronger Catalan (Spanish) influences. Many slaves were Middle Eastern, but an equally great number were Germanic/Slavic, including many Slavic mercenaries who settled Italy (have you ever watched King Arthur). North Africa and the Middle East were sparse as it was mostly desert, which the Roman Empire did not pass the fringes of the Sahara. On the other hand, the Slavic speaking areas of Europe were extremely dense and absorbed by the Roman Empire. Plus I have already established the fact that North Africa at the time was not Arab, rather they were Berber/Punic.

Discussion Part V

Although I find the latter a bit biased, since Muslim influence extended to Northern Italy as well. Finally, I am not anti-Muslim. While Europe was in the Dark Ages, it was in the Muslim world that the great antiquities in art and literature were preserved. Egypt had the first great Empire, and I proud to acknowledge that going back a couple thousand years that SOME of my ancestors came from there. Let's stop this "North is good, South is bad" mindset. South is good too!

I think that my link to showing NW African (Moorish) admixture in Europe is proof enough that I recognize that there is Northwest African admixture in Italy, but it shows a 2.5% average in Italian persons, compared to 8% in the Portuguese, 5% in Spaniards, and 3.5% in the French. My father is a Calabrian, born to a family of fair skinned, green eyed redheads, in the mountains. His family could easily be mistaken for Irish, Scottish and others. A land bridge...what are you talking about...please tell me you don’t base your theories on Neanderthals. Buddy, to this day, Rome is the capital of Italy, but not the largest city in Italy.

Discussion Part IV

Were not most of the slaves bought and sold brought into the Italian peninsula, and to Rome specifically?--since this was the capital and heart of the Empire? Yes, they didn't all come from North Africa and the Near East, but a large part did. If there were a land bridge between Sicily and Tunisia (actually at one time there was) would you acknowledge gene flow from North Africa? Boats were in use for thousands of years--so why it is so inconceivable that there were migrations from the southern shores of the Mediterranean? Why wouldn't North Africans settle in Italy, as the Normans did? You're so quick to acknowledge gene flow from the north of Italy, but not from the south. In your history book, it seems that migrations only occur in a southerly direction.

If you've ever seen the Duomo (Cathedral) of Amalfi, you would see stark examples of Islamic influence, and this is just one example. I never stated that ALL Italians have ancestry from N. Africa/M. East, but I believe that MOST do have SOME. The port cities of the Italian coast did much commerce with all parts of the Mediterranean, and port cities tend to be the most diverse. Like you said, in the mountains you'll find the more ancient elements of Italian DNA structure. I was born in a large and ancient port city (Naples, as I said) and trace all my ancestors back 4 generations all within Campania. (Going back several hundred or thousand years, none of us can be sure of what we'll find in our family tree). I'm one of those dark Italians with light brown (olive skin) and could easily get confused with being Middle Eastern. I know why some Italians are born with swarthier skin, and why even the ones born with fairer skin have DNA markers for the darker trait. There is even documentation that Sub-Saharan Africans were seen in different periods throughout the Mediterranean world.

Discussion Part III

The history of Phoenicians and Carthaginians was brief in Italy as they set up trading posts in Sicily, hardly all of Italy. They were not even Arab...they were Punic (who descend from Cypriot tribes). The Arabs were not even present in North Africa during the Carthaginian raids. In 700 AD, when Arab Muslims swept through Northern Africa is when an Arab presence reached Africa. Italians in effect are basically a mixture of Greek (particularly the south), Roman, Italic tribes, Germanic, Frankish, Celtic, Catalan (Spaniard), and Norman peoples, not to mention the tens of thousands of Albanian/Illyrian/Slavic peoples who entered Italy in the Middle Ages and settled Calabria, Sicily, including Basilicata, and Campania, when the Ottomans overran the Balkan peninsula whose communities still exist in Italy and are known as Aberesche.

To say that universally, every Italian has North African/Middle Eastern is gross overstatement. I don’t understand how an Italian person stating that he has Germanic, Celtic, Norman, Albanian, Roman, and Greek distant ancestors is denying his Italianisms, considering that all these make up his Italian ancestry. As you rightly put it, it's time to be Italian, so could you follow that as well.

I have been to France, Belgium, Poland, Switzerland, Austria, Croatia, and they greet the same with a hand shake and kiss, so that argument is baseless. What you have to understand is that there are dark people in every European country as well pasty-white peoples, but we should not use that as a ground for stupid 19th century stereotypes of European peoples. Italians shares things in common with fellow southern Europeans including minor import/export customs with northern Europe and North Africa. No one here is trying to prove which race/ethnicity is better than the other (considering that Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners are all Caucasian in race), but it is pointless to bring these outdated arguments of complexion, race, and religion up. You may not be racist, but you are bias in terms of religion considering that you wrote that we should not be ashamed of our heritage because these Arabs were not Muslim yet.

Discussion Part II

Using past slavery as means of justifying SOME Italian's dark complexions is baseless. First of all, almost every nation in Europe was under the Roman Empire, basically meaning that these Middle Eastern/North African slaves not only settled the Italian peninsula, but France, Spain, Portugal, Britain, Germany etc. In fact, besides Rome, there were actually no other large cities on the Italian peninsula. Also many slaves that the Romans had were Balkans, Slavic people from Eastern Europe, as well as Germanic peoples from northern Europe as the Roman Empire continued to spread. However, there were large Roman cities in France, Spain, Turkey, Britain, and southern Germany. Even before Rome, Italy is just a border skip away from France, Switzerland and Austria, so there is no meaning in Sicily being 85 miles from the coast of Tunisia.

When the Germanic tribes spilled over the Alps and brought Rome to an end, the Arabs raided the peninsula but did not settle it. Instead they captured what history calls "white slaves" off the coasts of Spain and Italy and plundered the coast which as a result, much of the coastal populations fled inlands and in the mountainous regions. There are ancient and historic communities to this day in Calabria, and Sicily that are on high mountainous altitudes. France was subject to Arab raids as well. The Arabs controlled Sicily and the southernmost parts of Italy for 75-200, but the Normans did a crusade on the island ousting Islamic rule and much of its adherents. For three hundred years, the Normans established its influence in southern Italy (architecture and people; called: Normanni), which is much more apparent in the architecture along with Byzantine (Greek) Sicily rather than Arab.

Discussion Part I

Italians are embarrassed to admit most of us have genetic links across the Mediterranean to include North Africa and the Near East. There is no reason to be ashamed since most of this link pre-dates the founding of Islam.

First of all--I was born in Napoli (Naples) and can trace all of my 8 great-grandparents to within the Campania region, so I am indeed one of "us". Second of all you need to learn the history of the Mediterranean world before making what you believe to be factual statements.--During the Roman Empire period slaves, merchants, solders, etc. came from all over the Empire to the Italian peninsula. Guess what? North Africa and parts of the Middle East were part of that Empire. Didn't you see Gladiator? It is documented by historic records that tens of thousands of slaves where transported from Egypt to Italy during the Empire period. Why do you think some Italians have light brown (olive) skin? This all pre-dates the founding of Islam in the 600's A.D. Even before Rome, how hard do you think it was for people to get into a boat and cross the Mediterranean from North Africa to the Italian peninsula? Did Homo sapiens originate in Italy? I don't think so--they came from somewhere else. After Rome there were many Saracen raids onto the peninsula--they just didn't control Sicily. If you look at the architecture along the coast of the entire peninsula you will see Islamic influence. The language was even affected. Foreigners upon hearing the Neapolitan (from Naples) dialect for the first time, think it sounds Arabic. Modern Neapolitan love songs sound that way too. The Arabic word for "the" is "al"--the Italian word is "il". Mediterranean men greet each other with a kiss on the cheek, whether Italian, Greek, Arab, Turkish, Spaniard, etc. Southern Europeans have more in common with other people of both sides of the Mediterranean than with Northern Europeans. Also it's not just southern Italy--Venice did much trade with the Middle East. Many merchants from there came to Venice to live. The Italian last name "Moro" is very common in Venice, and of course the word "moro" means Moor. Jews, Gypsies, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and other groups also crossed and settled in Italy from the East during the entire period of Italian history. Sicily is just 85 miles from Tunisia--not a very long boat trip. Tunis to Naples takes only an overnight boat ride today. It wouldn't have taken much longer a thousand years ago. I am not ashamed that some of my ancestors are from the south and east side of the Mediterranean, just as I am not proud that some of my ancestors came from north of the Alps. Northern Europeans are not superior to anyone else in the world--so we can stop trying link ourselves with them, and start being ourselves. All of humanity has a mixed past--no one is pure. And even if there were any purity, it wouldn't make them any better.

Are Italians racists?

Tonight I found this little text about Italians being racists

"I've been traveling a lot in my life, I’ve been throughout Europe and lived in many European countries. I've lived in Antwerp Belgium, which is known for its sea port, the pralines and beer. Antwerp is unfortunately known for its Extreme right party Vlaams Belang which has the majority. The whole world looked with a certain discard against Flemish people. They were seen as racist and even fascist. As a foreigner in Belgium I have never experienced any kind of racism all thou I know that some Flemish people feel some frustration with illegal immigration and that they feel a bit invaded by foreign workers coming from North-Africa and Eastern Europe but they "never" applied any racism on a local scale. I'm now in Italy and what I experience here is by far much more worst than Belgium or Austria!

It's seems that a vast majority of the administrative personnel and even the Police are ignorant. They ask Belgians, Dutchman, Germans and other European Union citizens a passport or work permission when you want to be a resident in Italy. When you search for a job in Italy, if you are not an Italian, your curriculum is on the bottom-line. It seems that whatever you are, citizen of the European Union or citizens from outside you are threatening as a second class citizen in Italy. Belgians are at least honest when they say that they are racist but they don't apply it, Italians pretend not to be but they apply it. It's a pity because I love Italy! so much ignorance! Only one country in the world follows the same pattern as Italy, Japan but at least they com forward and say that they want to be a pure Japanese state. In Italy you are only welcome as a foreigner when you are a Tourist or a rich entrepreneur."

Photo: sxc.hu